Monday, 11 May 2009
'Position, control, submission': women's BJJ seminar with Carmen Janke
We've moved! This post is still hanging about http://www.megjitsu.com/position-control-submission-womens-bjj-seminar-with-carmen-janke/
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My gym has women's only classes two times / week but they are so sparsely attended. Occasionally we will get a woman or two who will show up at the regular class, though. I've only ever rolled with a woman twice and both times it has been an uncomfortable experience for me. I'm an incredibly large guy. 6'4" 230lbs. So getting side control on a girl I feel like a real dick if I'm putting weight down. However, I've never rolled with a girl who has been even remotely a challenge to me, so maybe my reticence to actually engage could be because of that.
ReplyDeleteSo maybe on the off-chance that a girl ever sticks around at the gym and develops some skill, I'll be able to roll with her and not feel like a huge prick for putting my weight down on her.
Interesting, Isaac. I think barriers and self-consciousness are at play for men and women when we train together, but with regular integration, in my experience, most people get over that. On the one hand, I think that women's only events and classes are important both for giving women who train regularly at gyms with few or no other women a chance to roll with one another and for bringing women into the dojo before jumping in with the guys; I started martial arts in a women's only self defence course and that was definitely important for getting me through the door. Over a decade on, and I'm still lovin it! On the other hand, I think that it is healthful and helpful for everyone to have the widest variety of training partners possible, and, to this end, I think that men and women should train together in the normal course of things.
ReplyDeleteAs for being big, well, I'll tell you, you crush a 60 kilo guy (yes they do exist, I've trained with them) just as much as you'd crush a 60 kilo Meg. If you had the opportunity to train with committed female players, I think you'd get over your issues and start to just see them as training partners; if not, is your loss really. I don't think that your very limited experience of training with women can allow you to make any judgements and I can assure you that there are small, skillful men and women perfectly capable of giving guys your size a hard time ;)
I love the opportunity to train with smaller people like myself (also around 60kg) for exactly that reason-- I want to observe their game and adopt what works for myself. I do enjoy training with great big people, it's an excellent workout, but I do find that their techniques rarely translate to workable strategy for me :)
ReplyDeleteHi Meg,
ReplyDeleteGreat post. My wife came down to the seminar and enjoyed it. She's not done BJJ before but has to listen to me 24/7 bleat on about it, so it was nice for her to at least share in my obsession.
I walk around at 57kg so I train often with female players. There are some awesomely good women BJJers out there that I have had the pleasure to train with. At my size, I'll happily train with anyone my weight category, male or female, it makes little difference to me, I always find something to gain from the roll.
Good luck for the next women only session.
I would absolutely roll with a woman if I thought she'd be able to hold her own with me. I don't get much out of rolling with people I can absolutely school. Sure it is nice to work on my submission game from time to time but I'd rather work on it against a more skilled opponent. My school doesn't have any females who are dedicated though, therefore none of them can provide a challenge for me. When you come stateside next, you can swing in my gym and school me some. :)
ReplyDelete- Isaac
Hi Georgette. I'm with you. It is great to get an opportunity to work some offence and 'fancier' moves with other female players, not to mention compare strategies. Indeed, I found my 'own gun being used against me' at the seminar when Dom Vitry, Roger Gracie blue belt, had me stuck in a wicked half guard - a position I can often pass on dudes - I play half guard a lot too and was interesting to be on the receiving end. The ladies' defence was impressive and folk were very quick to capitalise on any space to go for a reversal. I was impressed with the fluidity and technical approach and it was an afternoon well spent, for sure! Equally, I love training with men of all sizes and feel very satisfied when I can 'survive' a roll with peeps with tens of kilos on me; while I might still be stuck on the bottom, I'm not tapping all the time and this is a victory in my book. Is a longer road, I think, for us smaller peeps, but immensely satisfying when we start to stop getting bullied all the time. Keep on truckin', girl! :D
ReplyDeleteThanks Meerkat. I absolutely agree that there is something to be learned from any training partner, and I subscribe to the view that one should strive to work with people of greater and lesser skill, greater and lesser weight and so on. Smaller and larger people and, I'm starting to find, men and women (even of equivalent weights) have different games and I think it is beneficial to be exposed to as many different approaches as possible. How did your wife enjoy the seminar; did she get the bug?
ReplyDeleteHey Issac. Like I say, it doesn't seem to me that you've actually had an opportunity to train with a female player. So perhaps you should reserve judgement until you've had the opportunity to work with women who train regularly and consistently. Indeed, perhaps you might help that process by being a little more open to training with the women who do show up at your class; perhaps a little more nurturing and active inclusion will persuade more regular attendance and you might well help to create a monster! Just a thought.
ReplyDeleteI wonder too, if you avoid training with smaller men, if you main goal is to work with people who 'challenge' you (which you seem to associate with size)? Indeed, your comments seem to conflate size and skill, and I'm here to tell you that I'm often confronted with white belt guys (from massive to less so) who are good at 'manhandling' but little else, and that approach is getting less and less effective with me everyday. I suppose it all depends on your approach to BJJ and mat time, but as I've stressed here I think that it is important to be open to training with anyone and see what there is to be learned. Happy training, brother.
Hey Meg,
ReplyDeleteWifey likes BJJ but is torn between doing that and doing kickboxing. Ill keep working to influence her on the BJJ side of things ;)
But the seminar did have another positive aspect. It persuaded Nick to create a special fee structure that will hopefully encourage more women to take up BJJ. Basically, partners of current members pay half price and kids go free.
I think it is important that a good club should reflect the wider community and encourage men, women,short, tall, ethnic backgrounds etc to take up the sport. If a guy of 69 can make his comp debut (Essex Open), or Kyle Maynard who has no limbs can compete, then it shows BJJ is really suitable for all.
Finally, I train with Dom, she schools me all the time!
Cool, Meerkat! Well there is always MMA and, of course, BJJ has the advantage of being sparrable without getting head knocked and less likely for nose breaks and eye blackening.
ReplyDeleteI'm definitely on the same page as you are regarding BJJ is for everyone. It is really exciting to hear that Nick has changed his fee structure; it is these sorts of changes that account for the circumstances of a wider range of folks that can make a huge difference in getting a greater variety of people on the mats! I am very proud of Dartford MMA as Dave has made the juniors classes central (and some of the teens do the gi classes with us) and actively encourages women to train (and compete). Keeps everyone grounded and creates a nice atmosphere where hardman machismo is minimised and is all about good fun, learning and fellowship.
Rolling with Dom was excellent. Very quick and mobile. Patient and, I believe, mentally tough. So excited that there is this conversation going on and I hope we can keep the momentum. Who knows what this could mean for (women's) BJJ in Britain :D
Sounds like an awesome seminar, and I can sympathise with almost everything you said, as a 64kg guy. Just a shame I'm the wrong gender to make it to one of these. ;)
ReplyDeleteCarmen's comment on not developing offence until purple belt was especially interesting. I get the impression that if you're small, you basically just have to accept that you're going to be squashed for the first couple of years, so almost completely focused on defence (unless you're lucky enough to have some fellow small people to train with).
Also fits with Saulo's belt progression in Jiu Jitsu University, where he puts white and blue under the headings of 'survival' and 'escapes' respectively. Pretty much leaves details on submissions until the final chapter, which was one of the things I liked about the book.
A special price for partners also sounds awesome: I'm as keen as ever to get my gf into BJJ, and that would definitely help. Hopefully Nick's policy catches on!
Hi Slideyfoot. Yes, I have more and more confidence in the path that I'm on as it seems there is a lot of consensus about how to progress and while Coach has been guiding me along in this manner all along, it is helpful to me to have it articulated to me in many ways as I'm just starting to 'get it'. I am perfectly willing to play the long game, though it can get tiring being trounced all the time, but is all about the process and I've got a lot of respect for my Coach's approach, which mirrors what you're describing. Understanding that this is a 'best practices' approach helps to ease my ego's bruising ;)
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